Is columnist David Rothfopf right—Trump losing in court won't be enough to save democracy? There are plenty of reasons to be skeptical of the future of democracy—gerrymandering, election finance, voter suppression, and politicians who will change the rules to achieve their goals. The recent campaign to amend Ohio’s constitution, Issue 1, is an example of politicians doing just that.

 Maybe people don’t want to live in a democracy. They want what they want and don’t care how they get it. Manipulating the system to achieve a goal is an acceptable strategy—do anything necessary to defeat the majority view. The proponents behind Issue 1—those who favor gerrymandering, gun right zealots and the anti-abortion groups—were willing change the rules to get what they want.

Listen to the conversation between Jack and Gonzo.